Are Submissive men weak?

Thank you for posting that, Matara.  Maybe I flatter myself, but I like to think most of it applies to me.  A lot of it definitely does.

The one that is a little iffy for me is #12.  I have not always been “comfortable with my masculinity” as a submissive man.  From what I have read, most women don’t find submissiveness an attractive quality in a man, and it definitely goes against the way men my age were socialized to think of “manliness”.  I must confess that has been a source of sexual insecurity for me, but I am lucky to have a wife who loves and accepts me the way I am, so I don’t have to worry about what “most women” would think of me.

 I have the impression that younger people aren’t as hung up on traditional gender stereotypes as much as we boomers were when we were young, so FLR’s will perhaps become more normal as society progresses.

Posted by: @mstara

I found this the other day on this blog https://www.tumblr.com/blog/view/sensualspiral and thought it might be an interesting item for the group to debate:-

 

"I was asked today what is it about submissive men I like, are they not weak? So here are my thoughts about this…. outside of the fantasy of the internet or the male constructed image of what a dominant woman is…..

A truly submissive man is rarely weak in any sense, nor are they lazy, or stupid or a doormat.

Relationships, connections with and submission from a submissive man come in many forms., Here are my experiences, observations and the traits I like.

1. Often very intelligent, life’s thinkers… this appeals to me, clever minds need to be switched off. They also usually appreciate a clever woman and are not threatened by that.

2. True gentleman, they open doors for you, pull back chairs in restaurants, give you their coat if you are cold. I personally love this, it makes you feel looked after.

3. Your pleasure is theirs ….. this covers a wide range of things from making you laugh to making you orgasm, usually giving in nature rather than taking. There is nothing hotter than a man finding happiness, pleasure or arousal, by facilitating yours. They are usually appreciate being guided or for a woman to take the lead completely, without seeing it as Criticism or some kind of assault on their masculinity. Getting laid is not usually high on their agenda, getting you off usually is.

4. They see the beauty you have inside and out and usually put greater value on the beauty inside.

5. They appreciate the things you do for them, and notice when you do.

6. They love making you feel better or good. Usually they notice when your not feeling good too and do their best to help.

7. They are Attentive -Foot rubs, massages, bringing you coffee, stuff that just needs doing. They usually like to talk, share dreams, ideas and generally just spend time with you.

8. They will take over when you need them to… they understand that need and even the most Dominant of dommes need to just check out sometimes, submissive men will help you do that, simply because that’s what you need …. they like to meet your needs.

9. They are usually very passionate, about life, their interests, you!

10. They like to be showered with affection and praise and will do things to get that.

11. Hold you in high regard and tell you so, the love and devotion a submissive man will express to his chosen dominant is a beautiful thing.

12. They are comfortable with their masculinity and their submission, they adore the dominance of femininity.

13. Usually fans of a corseted woman, a big plus for me.

14. Usually protective of their dominant, they usually insist that others treat their lady with the same respect they do.

15. Often sensitive and feeling

16. Value cuddles and intimacy

17. Thoughtful gift givers, even if the gift is their time.

18. They worship you, this can take many forms from kissing your feet to telling you they feel lucky to be in your life.

19. Motivated, usually in most aspects in life, life’s doers.

20. They are not intimidated by your confidence, sexuality, success, ambition, achievements, they usually find that a turn on.

I could go on and on, but I find no weakness in a submissive man. Quite the opposite - I see strength in someone knowing what makes them happy, is confident to ignore the stereotype of “manly” behaviour, has complete respect for women and sees my needs equal to or greater than his own…

I give thanks to the universe for creating such a glorious creature as the submissive man and I’m sure many other dominant women do to!"

Are submissive men "weak"? In the traditional sense, yes they are, but traditions are evolving, and todays information age now places high value, not on the hunter - gatherers of yesteryear, but on the tech, science and math nerds of today 

The traits you listed above are commonly associated with those of a "beta male" Males with most of these traits usually have higher I.Q.'s earn a more substantial wage, and are more sensitive to the needs of females. Because of their intellect, they are more often quiet introverts, were often picked on in school, and often had difficulty attracting female partners. There are exceptions to all this of course, but generally the beta male described above is more willing to submit to a FLR, a locked chastity cage, pegging, spanking, and/or cuckolding, including that of assisting in raising the child of his wife's Alpha male lover 

If obedience is considered a weakness (I do not consider it a weakness) then the submissive man is weak. Obedience is his strength in an FLR relationship or marriage. 

@suzzana 

This is true., Too often labels such as weak, or beta obscure the fact that  dominant women and submissive men usually make for excellent relationships, and if this leads to male chastity, pegging, spanking etc. so be it. Besides, if all males were strong, alpha types, we would have had world war 3 a long time ago, and we don't need that now - do we? ?  

Posted by: @mstara

"I was asked today what is it about submissive men I like, are they not weak? So here are my thoughts about this…. outside of the fantasy of the internet or the male constructed image of what a dominant woman is…..

A truly submissive man is rarely weak in any sense, nor are they lazy, or stupid or a doormat.

First, let me say @Mstara that I appreciate your well thought out and realistic look at things.  Like more and more people recently, I find the need to categorize and label everything and everyone tedious at best, and down right destructive and wrong at worst.  The lifestyle that many of us here have chosen is fraught with the need to label people.

Are (some) submissive men weak?  Of course.  If a man, such as myself, is submissive to one person, my wife, does that mean I am weak because I am arguable submissive?  Of course not.  I do wish more people would resist the need to say all or never, everyone and nobody when talking about things in this realm, or in any realm for that matter.  Most reasonable people have an instinct and an innate desire to be free from judgement and scrutiny, be it favorable or not.  Not everyone is this or that, and those improperly judged people are never always or never this or that ... yet there is such a need for many people to put things and people in a tidy little box.  Until it's more common for society to TRULY AND ACTUALLY believe in to each their own, without judgment (again, good or bad), such judgment will continue be a divisive factor in our happy, private little world here and society in general.  Acceptance of racism in name of fighting racism, sexism in the name of fighting sexism, religious persecution in the name of fighting religious persecution, etc. comes to mind.

Me?  I'm alpha in absolutely every aspect of my life except for one.  I am submissive to my wife for two reasons.  One, I offered her my submission as a gesture of love, trust and a desire for her to live her most blissful existence for the rest of her life.  And two, because she accepted it and in return offered her dominance.  

Thanks again @mstara.  The words you speak (write) are always meaningful and helpful.

Lastly, I do wish there was a "love" button in addition to a "like" button.  If there were for this post, I'd be all over the love button.

I wonder if submissive men get tagged as weak because insecurity in men often shows up as submissive behavior so the two get conflated.

@happycuckold Most women do find submissive men attractive (the kind that Mstara posted about on this thread). They don't find men who are labeled as submissive or "a nice guy" attractive because it is often a selfish motive behind those traits. Sort of like a codependent mindset where the woman now "owes" the "nice submissive man" in one way or another and he keeps score. Many times submissive or nice men call themselves that to put a positive shine on their insecurities or to justify their own negative behavior. They are not truly submissive men like the one written about here, they are selfish and annoying wolves in sheep clothing. 

Posted by: @lbp6855

@happycuckold Most women do find submissive men attractive (the kind that Mstara posted about on this thread). They don't find men who are labeled as submissive or "a nice guy" attractive because it is often a selfish motive behind those traits. Sort of like a codependent mindset where the woman now "owes" the "nice submissive man" in one way or another and he keeps score. Many times submissive or nice men call themselves that to put a positive shine on their insecurities or to justify their own negative behavior. They are not truly submissive men like the one written about here, they are selfish and annoying wolves in sheep clothing. 

Thanks for your response.  That makes sense to me.  I think a challenge in a FLR is that most of us submissive men tend to have the kinds of sexual kinks that are involved in femdom porn.  Therefore, our desire to “serve” our partners is in tension with our desire to be dominated by her in kinks ways, whether that be spanking, enforced chastity, tease and denial, pegging, cuckolding, etc.  We submissive men need to be cognizant of the risk of that to avoid the temptation to make FLR about OUR needs in a way that is annoying for our partners.  But from what I have read, that is a problem in D/s relationships in general, whether the orientation is F/M, M/F, F/F, or M/M.  Successful D/s relationships tend to be challenging for the dominant partner in ways the submissive partner might fail to fully appreciate.  In some ways, a D/s relationship of the M/F variety can be more centred on a woman’s sexual needs than a FLR.  That is why the Fifty Shades books and movies were amazingly popular with women, and popular romance novels for women sometimes feature M/F spankings  and NEVER the opposite.  

@happycuckold The trap that men fall in to is to make a FLR or dom/sub dynamic all about the sexual aspect instead of a lifestyle or way of being with one another. It is a big reason for negative views and a lack of the general public embracing these ideas. The idea of there being few dominant women is a result of this and a large percentage of women would become dominant if the submissive men were of the kind of values that were written about in this post. 

Posted by: @lbp6855

@happycuckold The trap that men fall in to is to make a FLR or dom/sub dynamic all about the sexual aspect instead of a lifestyle or way of being with one another. It is a big reason for negative views and a lack of the general public embracing these ideas. The idea of there being few dominant women is a result of this and a large percentage of women would become dominant if the submissive men were of the kind of values that were written about in this post. 

You could be right. That being said, I would be surprised if the men who follow this blog, either as participants or lurkers, aren’t motivated by kinks to some extent.  There is a lot of discussion of kinks like enforced chastity, orgasm denial, pegging, cuckolding, small penis humiliation, etc.  To me the idea that a husband should “obey” his wife, even in the absence of those other kinks, is kinky.  “Obedience” isn’t normally expected in a vanilla relationship, except maybe in the context of an old-fashioned patriarchal marriage in which the wife has vowed to “love, honour, and OBEY” her husband.  Nowadays, it seems a bit kinky to include “obey” in wedding vows, whether it be the man or the woman who promises to be submissive that way.

Posted by: @lbp6855

@happycuckold The trap that men fall in to is to make a FLR or dom/sub dynamic all about the sexual aspect instead of a lifestyle or way of being with one another. It is a big reason for negative views and a lack of the general public embracing these ideas. The idea of there being few dominant women is a result of this and a large percentage of women would become dominant if the submissive men were of the kind of values that were written about in this post. 

I think you are spot on.  If the existence of a WLM/FLR is merely for the dispensing of fetish activities for the male, then yes, it is tedious and I would imagine undesirable for any woman.  In fact, such a thing isn't a WLM at all.  A WLM, for me anyway, is defined as a relationship where the man is solely and supremely focused on the pleasure of the woman.  Not just sexual, but pleasure in her ENTIRE existence.  

When Ms. K. (my Wife) and I began our WLM, I was very, very careful to present it to her in such a way that there would be NO misunderstanding about what I was proposing for her.  Not extra work for her.  Not turning her into a fetish peddler.  My submission to her is full time 24/7/365.  We are a regular couple that appear to lead the typical vanilla lifestyle.  She's a cute, super sweet redheaded soccer mom that nobody would ever suspect that she puts me in a chastity cage, spanks me when I am in need of correction or will decide when or even if I ever orgasm.  In all aspects of our relationship, I have encouraged her to be selfish with what she thinks I can do to bring pleasure in her life.  At first, it was difficult for her find comfort in the fact that her being "selfish" about her needs was in fact a good thing, because it took her a while to truly understand that doing things that bring her pleasure gives me immense pleasure.  

When I say these things, I'm not speaking about sex things.  Sure, the same holds true in the sex department but I am talking everything in our marriage, everything in our life.  The benefits of chastity and orgasm denial/control, etc., are used as tools for her to be able to get the best out of me.  I went from a man that had an orgasm 3-5 times a week to a much happier sexually, more fulfilled man in marriage that has an orgasm 3-5 times a year ... if you don't count ruined orgasms.

Our life and marriage isn't perfect but our marriage, our dedication to each and the depth of our love only gets as we continue our journey.  The minute she stopped worrying about whether she was "doing it right" or behaving in a certain way as a Dominant Wife, as defined by others, she was able to settle in nicely in her leadership role, find joy and comfort in knowing that she is not being mean to me but rather she proving me the pleasure as husband I seek by demanding/expecting that I provide her the pleasure she deems she needs in her life.  I think it is for this reason that I usually scoff at discussions that are centered around trying to define or even pigeonhole men, women, dominants, submissives, cuckolds, hotwives, monogamy, polamory, etc. and so on.  Like every other couple, we have ebbs and flows in our daily life, but I'll tell you that it significantly closer to perfect than it has ever been in our 25 years of being together.

I'd really love to see a lessening of the desire to define and categorize people and situations, in all aspects of society.  Let people be who they are and when people ask ... 'hey, am I doing this right', or 'is this how I am supposed to feel or act', or other such things, instead of helping them find which bucket they should be or are allowed to be in, encourage them to not care and find bliss in their lives with others in whatever really works for them.

Posted by: @lbp6855

Posted by: @lbp6855

@happycuckold The trap that men fall in to is to make a FLR or dom/sub dynamic all about the sexual aspect instead of a lifestyle or way of being with one another. It is a big reason for negative views and a lack of the general public embracing these ideas. The idea of there being few dominant women is a result of this and a large percentage of women would become dominant if the submissive men were of the kind of values that were written about in this post. 

I think you are spot on.  If the existence of a WLM/FLR is merely for the dispensing of fetish activities for the male, then yes, it is tedious and I would imagine undesirable for any woman.  In fact, such a thing isn't a WLM at all.  A WLM, for me anyway, is defined as a relationship where the man is solely and supremely focused on the pleasure of the woman.  Not just sexual, but pleasure in her ENTIRE existence.  

Subhubphx, I agree with the overall idea in your post, but I would push back a little against the statement that in a WLM “the man is solely and supremely focused on the pleasure of the woman.”  I agree that is a good aspiration.  But I think for any relationship to work, there has to be a two way street.  If the dominant partner is truly selfish to the point of ignoring the submissive partner’s wants and needs, the marriage is likely to fail.  The rest of your post shows that your marriage is flourishing because your wife is using her power in a way that meets your needs, including some pretty kinky ones.  I think my wife is the same way.  It has pleased her to incorporate certain of my kinks into our relationship.  That has included spanking and other forms of discipline, cuckolding, and SPH.  She expects me to respect her leadership and to obey her in such practical areas as housework and allocation of our shared financial resources.  On the other hand, she has chosen not to engage with certain of my kinks, such as enforced chastity and pegging.  We are both happy with this arrangement because we are both having at least some of our needs met.  But I think it would be naive for a woman to enter into a WLM/FLR, taking that as a licence to be dismissive of her partner’s needs.

Posted by: @lbp6855

@happycuckold The trap that men fall in to is to make a FLR or dom/sub dynamic all about the sexual aspect instead of a lifestyle or way of being with one another. It is a big reason for negative views and a lack of the general public embracing these ideas. The idea of there being few dominant women is a result of this and a large percentage of women would become dominant if the submissive men were of the kind of values that were written about in this post. 

Men are sexual. I *must* have an orgasm at least every 48 hours (preferably every 24 hours) or I go nuts.

Chastity is just how she makes sure that I go nuts. I no longer masturbate (or cheat or whatever), so after 2-3 days, I am not "playing" FLR, it simply is an FLR.

And more and more, that 2-3 day wait has almost completely disappeared. I never stop obeying and worshiping her.

Posted by: @true42

Posted by: @lbp6855

@happycuckold The trap that men fall in to is to make a FLR or dom/sub dynamic all about the sexual aspect instead of a lifestyle or way of being with one another. It is a big reason for negative views and a lack of the general public embracing these ideas. The idea of there being few dominant women is a result of this and a large percentage of women would become dominant if the submissive men were of the kind of values that were written about in this post. 

Men are sexual. I *must* have an orgasm at least every 48 hours (preferably every 24 hours) or I go nuts.

Chastity is just how she makes sure that I go nuts. I no longer masturbate (or cheat or whatever), so after 2-3 days, I am not "playing" FLR, it simply is an FLR.

And more and more, that 2-3 day wait has almost completely disappeared. I never stop obeying and worshiping her.

 

I think that enforced chastity is a really sexy erotic game, similar to other forms of erotic power exchange.  I think the idea you express that a woman who controls a man’s access to orgasms controls his entire being is a sexy fantasy, but it is fantasy.  Not having an orgasm for a while doesn’t really have a big enough physiological effect to compel a man to worship and obey a woman.  We worship our wives because we want to.  It is sexually exciting and emotionally fulfilling to do so for a sexually submissive man, and the things they do to make us feel that they have power over us are sexy and fun.  That’s how I see it.