Playing Devil’s Advocate With Cuckhold Premises – do committed relationships even make sense in the first place?
I feel like there are a lot of topics that start with cuckholding then get into reverse engineering and defending why they are ok or maybe why everyone should look into them. Here, I wanted to play devils advocate with that. I see primal instincts as defense of cuckholding. But if I deferred to primal instants, I'm not sure why we even have a committed relationship supporting poly in the first place.
A really really quick background on me if it’s not in my bio or intro: I had a foot fetish since puberty. That stemmed into femdom and I bumped into chastity. I bumped into chastity over 10 years ago and just couldn’t unsee it. It slowly drew me in, I got a cage on played with it on my own without telling my wife. After months I worked up the courage to introduce to my wife. She grew into it (over years) and I’m locked 24/7 with 3 kids and a very vanilla life from the outside looking in. My interest in Chastity has brought me to audiences also interested in cuckholding.
I find cuckolding super hot. I love the idea of my wife being checked out or hit on with me locked up. That is kind of as far as my fantasy goes though. For me personally, I don’t think it is for me or us. I periodically tell my wife some of the things I have bumped into (here or other blogs) when I’m sort of saying “you think chastity is kinky, wait until you hear this.” And from there I watch her face turn different shades of pale ; ). I haven’t heard of a woman suggesting a cuck relationship at first for her to get the concept off the ground (excluding her subsequent new relationships), and I can’t say that I’d be asking for this so I don’t think we’ll go this path. I still find it fascinating and hot. I go to amusement parks and I don’t go on every ride. But I watch all of them. It is common in the cuck relationship that the husband is in chastity or forgoing sexual activity at some level. So I can relate to that. I just think of it as when a man does not get an orgasm, he get’s more aroused by … [INSERT YOUR KINKS HERE]. So I have a foot fetish and am into CBT – where that came from I cannot explain. But I can definitely explain that when I don’t have an orgasm, I want these things more. So for me, the poly relationship falls into [your kinks]. If you’re both into [whatever], great – have fun. Communicate what turns you on / off and have fun from there.
Recently, there have been a handful blogs posts that further lean in on how Cuckolding is good and why it works for many people. Again, my take is that if you’re both into it (or anything kinky thing that you do), then great! Go for it! I feel on the site though, there is this tone of “if you like coffee, the you’ll love cocaine.” Of course they are always responsibly paired with, “hey, cocaine isn’t for everyone … be careful” But again and again there is a persistent “if you like coffee … “ all over the place here. Frankly when I first came to this site, I thought it was the first place I had seen that was approachable for women and was looking forward to getting my wife engaged here. The site is so well done Emma and not for a second would I suggest you change anything, I’m just pointing out that my wife was creeped out when I even told her what cuckolding was so even your welcoming blog would be overwhelming for her. IMHO though, that’s on her – she needs to loosen up. I love her and I’m stuck with her though so I’m ok with that ; ).
So I want to play Devil’s Advocate on the premises that were cited in many of the podcasts and the messaging that has gone hand in hand with “so you like coffee … “ thoughts that have persisted here. I can’t say that I have disagreed with any of them, but I also feel that a very core assumption is consistently missed in these discussions – in all of them. On this site, when I listen to podcasts and experts have the floor. There is an argument women’s eyes wander and that they may even wander more than men’s. There is an argument that women lose desire more quickly than a man in a relationship. We start to tap into instinctual elements of the feral animals that we are, but really, the conversations skew towards the woman’s perspective. I think there is a book out, “Mating In Captivity,” but I think the phrase explains itself. Mating in captivity is this song and dance that both male and females love the chase part of a new relationship. But how do you keep chasing something you already have? I feel this is foundational to the points made throughout the blog and in much of the references (e.g. podcasts). Then from there, we move on to logic that woman’s desire falls much more quickly than the male in these circumstances. So it is for this reason that the woman needs to have that chase part that is always there, right? If your partner / boyfriend / husband is has brought up the idea of the female chasing new partners, then everyone’s problems are solved [specific kinks again]. Yada yada yada, And in conclusion women can benefit from a poly relationship so she can chase all she wants and go get super alpha males – male strippers, males with awesome physics, nfl players or whatever – the fantasies go on. On par with thinking every nerdy guy at a star trek convention should be fucking a victoria’s secret model. Hang on, both female and male are still feral animals trying to mate in captivity. We covered ½ of the equation in our assumptions above. We didn’t talk about male and we skipped another major assumption altogether.
The basic assumption overlooked: that we should even have a committed relationship in the first place
How do you think sexual activity worked 10 thousand years ago? Right now, It is not socially acceptable to rape women, it’s not socially acceptable for a male to try and fuck a different woman every chance he gets. But if you want to grasp why our successful society exists where it is today, you can thank the male sex drive. I’m pretty sure that ten thousand years ago, that’s just how things worked. Ok, fast forward to the lifetime we are in now. In this scene, I hear people go on and on about how females are superior and they should dominate males and that’s the way it should be … I kind of want to point out what got us here. Males are physically stronger. Objectively evolution would also say males are more attractive than females – the females selected the desirable traits and those traits get to live on (compare male vs female mallard duck or a peacock for example – which are more attractive?). Theoretically, males need to be more attractive to earn the interest of the females and the females see it that way. I think maybe an even more interesting topic is how committed relationships evolved – they were selected by the female. At the same time, there is a shared interest in committed relationships in the male because a committed relationship guarantees your gene pool is moving forward and she did not mate with anyone else during that relationship. And it takes humans let’s say 18 years to reach maturity. It makes sense that the concept of a committed relationship evolved for both male and female, but I can assure you that females selected it. Some would say that when the committed relationship evolved, love also evolved and was created at that point.
So I know how my hormones work and I know why I am horny etc as a male. The feral animal in me has not gone away, but I am confined to modern day culture and society. I feel like my sexuality is like a balloon and when you squeeze it or confine something pops up somewhere. If I had open, free, constant access to sex in my adolescence and beyond (if the balloon wasn’t squeezed like it would have been 10 thousand years ago), I’m not sure that I would have ever found out that I have foot fetish or that like to get my balls busted [or your kinks like femdom or cuck or whatever]. I would have just been going full alpha male and not looking back. But society and culture did not allow that – the balloon was squeezed. I turned to masturbation and learned of my odd fetishes over time. In the early years, it was with Victoria’s secret and years later the internet would show me so many other angles I didn’t know exist – like chastity.
Today, Males have all been born into a society and culture that does not allow our bodies to do what it really wants to do. We are designed to fuck often and as many different people we can to spread our genes. Think about the male vs female reproductive strategies. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Males are physically able to (and motived to) have sex daily or even more than once a day. For the male, there is zero risk in spreading his gene pool; a few minutes, you get off, you’re done. The female though, it’s a bit different. They have 1 opportunity a month to spread their gene pool. They will bear and raise the child. It is extremely important for her to be selective. The female does not have a physical need for relief the way a male does and her senses are not heightened when they have not had sex the way a male is. Both the male and female love the chase, but it seems that the male body / hormonal makeup affords him to be “ok” with being with the same person while the female needs the chase for her rush. Sex drives are typically disproportionate with the male having the higher sex drive. So the cuck approach would seem to say that the male needs less and the woman needs more to raise her desire so she should get more. This assumes that the male is into it etc and then her getting more in turn gets him off … “so you like coffee … you should check out … “ ; )
I want to zoom out from the cuck panacea messaging and point out that what I learned time and time again (from the blogs, podcasts, books etc) is that woman seek “novelty.” That is it. Sure as fuck that going poly definitely hits the “novelty” check box. At the same time, novelty could be wearing outfits, roleplaying, meeting each other in a hotel lobby with different names. This does not need to be a “hey, if you like jogging, you’ll really love skydiving” type of situation … you may also like things like mountain biking, hiking and camping.
Back to my main point though, I appreciate how the cuck approach can address the desire gap when that works for consensual couples. I thank everyone who shares their stories - they are awesome. If a couple is into that, then that is great. At the same time, I want to remind everyone that males are still feral animals too and really the very framework of a committed relationship is contradictory to what the male would want to do. I have never seen that blatant point be made. We just jump into an assumption that committed relationships are “normal.” When you want to justify cuckolding by referring to female primal needs, maybe we should also remember male primal needs too. For me chastity has helped close this loop for me (routing to my wife) and for those on the poly route, great that is working for you to close the loop for you!
@trophy.husband This is excellent! I've read it a couple of times now and I still don't know where to begin or where it might possibly end. I could give a reply that went on for days, but I won't. You're welcome. I will say this though ... this is probably the most informative, thoughtful and logical things I have read or heard about cuckolding. There is zero judging. There is zero shade throwing. There is only reasonable discourse, and for that I am thankful.
I find cuckolding super hot. I love the idea of my wife being checked out or hit on with me locked up. That is kind of as far as my fantasy goes though. For me personally, I don’t think it is for me or us
I still find it fascinating and hot.
These passages perfectly reflect my feelings on cuckolding. I've evolved (see what I did there?) from a husband that would've never even allowed the possibility or idea of my beautiful wife enjoying sexual pleasure with another man, to a loving, devoted and submissive husband that would support it if it were to become what she wanted. Currently she doesn't want it, but if that changed, we'd have a new and exciting adventure that we would communicate the living fuck out of before venturing into that pool. For me the hang up has always been, and still is, the pursuit, courtship and relationship aspect of it. Learning about and experiencing compersion allows me to be ok with watching my wife have sex with what amounts to a human sex toy and is something I could get behind and support her with. When the sex toy has done it job, it goes right back into the drawer. Watching her experiencing experience the intimate, emotional aspects of intimate relationship development is not.
Like you @trophy.huhsband, I have zero problem with anybody else that feels and behaves differently. Like you said 'insert your kinks here' and if they bring you joy, I couldn't be happier for you. Afterall, our ability and willingness to engage sexual activities that would bring us happiness is a freedom that not everyone gets to experience. Thank you for this post!
Learning about and experiencing compersion allows me to be ok with watching my wife have sex with what amounts to a human sex toy and is something I could get behind and support her with. When the sex toy has done it job, it goes right back into the drawer. Watching her experiencing experience the intimate, emotional aspects of intimate relationship development is not.
Is it a legit psychological fact? Don't know, but there it is.
Cuckolding, at its base form, is a sadomasochistic behavior. Same as chastity. You say that had foot worshiping that led to Femdom kinks…again, sadomasochistic kink.
Your argument is that men still have animalistic instincts. I would argue, not the submissive minded male. You have left the alpha beta concepts out of the discussion. You have also failed to mention or understand the idea of compersion, which I believe is a huge part of cuckolding. Especially once the couple is past the initial stages of breaking the bonds of traditional marriage.
I would also like to point out, many couples do recognize the primal needs of the male and also that monogamous relationships are not for them, Polyamory or Swinging. Those are not based in sadomasochism, they are based on an equal need to be with more than one partner sexually.
I agree with everything you're saying if you're assuming committed relationships, but that was kind of my point - that committed relationships aren't natural in the first place. I'm referring to a time before committed relationships. Our topics of fetishes and compersion are sort of first-world sexual topics. When we were fighting in Maslow's first basic needs level and not knowing when we were gong to eat next, and committed relationships didn't exist, I'm pretty sure we weren't worried about arranging threesomes or getting joy out of other peoples joy. So that was my point. Enter committed relationships and civilization as we know it and I agree with everything you're saying.
We talk about the science of how it is natural for woman's desire to drop in a committed relationship. I'm saying maybe that's because committed relationships aren't natural in the first place. Maybe her desire is supposed to drop because that's when both male and females would go chase something new. I'm not anti-relationship. I also defended why a committed relationship evolved and is both beneficial for the male and female in terms of confirming they pass on their gene pool. So that's it - I was just pointing out that I feel the concept of a committed relationship is just implied to be normal.
@subhubphx how has your wife’s desire been affected by your FLR without cuckolding? How did things change once you instituted the FLR? And how have things gone in the years since then? Is she bored or is she disinterested in sex?
@subhubphx how has your wife’s desire been affected by your FLR without cuckolding? How did things change once you instituted the FLR? And how have things gone in the years since then? Is she bored or is she disinterested in sex?
Her desire in and for sex increased some after we stepped into our WLM world, but not anywhere near the point of her being insatiable or slut-like (I would love that). Our WLM was initially primarily focused on our mutual happiness generally speaking, with the basic theory that an always blissful and pleasure filled life for her would bring even more love and harmony to our relationship. Neither of us felt then (or now) that we were (or are now) trying to fix a relationship that was broken. Quite the contrary. We were (and still are) both happy and committed in our relationship, only wanting to take it to another level of bliss for her. Knowing that I get genuine pleasure from her living a life of bliss and pleasure would bring me great joy and pleasure. So far, so good. Knock on wood.
We had always been sexually adventurous ever since we got together. Kinky even. We dabbled (then) in BDSM and various forms of naughty sex play. Really the only thing that has changed is that she solely decides if, what, when, where and how sex will happen. Over the years, she has learned to joyfully wallow in the joy of not having to concern herself with my sexual pleasure and be selfish about it. Again, without the guilt of worrying about my pleasure. We've had our share of cuckold conversations over the years, and she remains steadfast that she does not have a burning desire to fuck other men. Once I became more of a permanent wearer of a cock cage, having me wear a strap on to fuck her with increased heavily and although it's not the exclusive way she prefers for me to fuck, it clearly is moving in that direction. When I use the strap on, she more often than not has the kind and number of orgasms that leave her completely spent and needing a good 20 minutes to just lay there and recover. Our sexy talk during does include role play that it is another man fucking her. Saying things like "that's my husband over there in the chair watching" and things like that. She will always make a point to say to me that although it is sexy fantasy talk, not for me to think she actually wants it to be a real other man. We'll see if that continues and what direction, if any, it may take her/us.
She is decidedly not bored or disinterested in sex. She loves sex and she adores orgasms, and has them frequently.
I hope that answers your questions. What about you and your fiancé? Same questions.
@subhubphx I would answer the questions in much the same way. We were not trying to fix anything when we chose to pursue an FLR. My fiancé has more interest in sex than before the FLR, but she has not become insatiable or slut-like. Our relationship is 100% focused on positives for our relationship. We see that it is making us both better people, to each other and to the rest of the world. Serious humiliation and degradation are viewed as categorically un-loving and therefore off-limits. Certainly, the kind of sexual activity we engage in has changed now that the focus of all our sex is for her pleasure and she owns my orgasms.
I asked you these questions because it has been offered as justifications for cuckolding that women are hard-wired for multiple partners, they eventually lose their sexual passion for their life partner, or they just get bored. It is argued that the taking of outside lovers is necessary for the true sexual satisfaction of the woman and the maintenance of a healthy relationship with a strong, loving bond between the husband and wife. As I understand it, sexual passion is going to be lost after a few years: That is a given. But the passion for the woman can be supplied by another partner or partners, and a healthy, albeit diminished, relationship with a different and continuing bond between the husband and wife can therefore continue. It seems to follow that finding sexual passion in a different place and settling for a less-complete marital relationship is worth it even if it comes at the price of humiliating/degrading the husband and confirming his inferiority.
I have raised questions about these ideas because I do not understand how humiliation/degradation and the declaration of a partner as inferior can ever be healthy for the husband (or the wife, for that matter). I believe a strong, healthy bond comes from lifting your partner up, building his or her self-esteem, and looking for ways to increase intimacy and constantly rekindle passion.
My relationship with my fiancé is only about five years old. We have been pursuing our FLR for about a year. I acknowledge that our relationship may be too new for us to be jaded or bored yet. But @subhubphx and his wife have been at it for years and even their FLR is many years old. So, while my experience about passion being maintained might be discounted because our relationship is still too new, how do we explain the case of @subhubphx and Ms. K?
I have another theory on cuckolding. And it has two parts. Cuckolding could be incorporated into a healthy relationship where is done FOR THE PURPOSE of strengthening the bond between husband and wife based on compersion, the satisfaction of the wife, and the hard rule that the lover is essentially a sex toy and no emotional bond between bull and wife will be tolerated. I don’t know if many women can have sex without developing an emotional attachment, but I’ll go with it being at least theoretically possible. Is can succeed because the couple is open to empowering each other, but dedicated to never diminishing the other.
My theory holds that any cuckolding relationship that is premised upon humiliation/degradation and inferiority is on dangerous ground because it CANNOT be uplifting or empowering to the husband. He may tolerate it because of compersion, dedication to his wife, or fear of losing her, but I do not see how it cannot eventually take its toll.
But, does sexual passion have to die between a couple? Can a couple continually rekindle it? I propose that they can. And I think the answer is to take the relationship from a mere partnership to a higher level of intimacy based on FLR. Where sex is EXTREMELY important. Where the sexual pleasure of the wife is paramount and the husband derives his pleasure from his wife’s sexual satisfaction. Instead of bringing another into the relationship and risking creating a wedge between husband and wife, double down on the importance of the sexual nature of the marital relationship and its focus on the pleasure of the woman.
I offer @subhubphx and Ms. K as proof of my theory.
@allabouther First ... thanks for the shout out. Being used as an example for something is nice. I don't know that what we do is much different than what a large number of couples do as well. I think when people tend to get into discussion, even debate about things, be it here about cuckolding, in the vanilla world about politics and other social shit, it really just boils down expressing our personal opinions as to how things relate to us. In this case, how they relate to each of us a couple, and even each of us as an individual. The perceived or actual inevitability of something that may or may not happen to other people/couples is merely an opinion yes, but an opinion based in how it is we personally feel it affects us in our own lives? Is it fair? It's not a matter of being fair or not because it's a personal opinion. When it becomes not fair is when we start telling other that they are good or bad based on whether or not they agree with our opinion. So in the end, aren't we all just commenting on the things we like/dislike in relation to our boundaries.
For me, it's all about my personal boundaries. There are people that I admire, respect and adore that do things that I would never do because those things are outside my boundaries. I admire, respect and adore people still because they don't generally intend on shoving things up my ass that I don't otherwise want in there. Metaphorically speaking of course. I've had more than one uninformed/uneducated/biased person hit me with messages or comments here or on my blog that will automatically assume that I am a limp-dicked, caged, sissy that enjoys sucking the cock of all of my wife's lovers to get them hard for her, so she can tell me over and over what a useless man and husband I am to her. You know, because all submissive men are like that right? All of this because I have come out as a submissive husband in a loving female led marriage. The comments are quite comical, but that's a story for another time.
Similarly, there are plenty of biased, uninformed opinions about the nuances in the kinkosphere. Like ... All submissive men are betas and will eagerly take a willing back seat in their relationship with their woman, to a better, more successful, stronger man that has a bigger dick that will last for hours. You know ... because it is what they want. That kind of thing. Of course, it's bullshit, but that doesn't stop people from being dug in their opinions. With all of that, each of us has or own unique and personal boundaries (hard and soft) and if we are lucky in this life, we are able to find someone that fit within each other's boundaries well enough to have a deep, loving and satisfying relationship together, that grows deeper with time. Not the bullshit illusion of growth because one or both people suppress their fears and emotions for the sake of the other, but the real kind. COMMUNICATION !!!
I have my own boundaries when it comes to the idea of my beautiful Ms. K. having sex with another man, or woman. If anyone is interested in what those are, they'll ask, but suffice it say, those boundaries have evolved over the years because, you know, growth. Another man as a human sex toy, I can get behind that. Another man taking her on dates or vacations for sex and courtship, I won't. Is it wrong for others to feel or do differently? Absofuckinglutely not! There are some wonderful people here that do that very thing and I respect and adore them.
Boundaries and tolerance are always the key, and not just in the kink world but also in the rest of the world. Having opinions different than mine? Fucking awesome! Shoving those opinions up my ass? No fucking way. That belongs to Ms. K. and what goes in there is her prerogative.
With the exception of one or two cretins I've come across here in the past, the thing I love about Emma and this site is that she and it are really inclusive, informative, interesting and intellectual. Sometimes even funny. This forum string is another example of that.
Trophy Husband, I find your post interesting, but as someone who has been in a successful long term marriage involving cuckolding, I would make a couple of points. First, I don’t think playing with primal instincts rooted in evolutionary psychology means that we are “deferring” to those instincts. It is interesting to speculate about the way the different mating strategies of males and females 10’000 years ago may influence contemporary kinks, but evo psych is purely speculative, and I find it overly reductive to try to explain the great diversity in human sexuality by means of such speculation.
Second, I don’t see many people presenting cuckolding as any sort of “panacea”. People and couples are too psychologically diverse for there to be any panaceas, inside or outside the bedroom. You also suggest that the premises on which consensual non monogamy are based render the ideal of “committed relationships” nonsensical. I disagree. Monogamous marriage serves a number of purposes that are not purely sexual. It satisfies a need for enduring affection and mutual support, through good times and bad. It is a stable economic partnership that engenders a good environment for raising children. It integrates us into extended families, with all of the potential benefits that flow from that. None of those benefits are negated by sexual experimentation with consensual non monogamy in the bedroom.
My wife and I have been married for over 40 years. We have children and grandchildren who are important parts of our lives. We have important relationships to extended family. We have mutual friends. We have a standard of living that has been made possible by marriage as a committed economic partnership. We have also derived a great deal of sexual pleasure and fun from cuckolding and other kinks of a “femdom” nature. My wife is no longer cuckolding me for reasons that relate to age and health problems. But we share fond memories of that exciting phase of our sex life, and I imagine that we will continue to do so “until death do us part”.
@subhubphx , it sounds like you and your wife have a great relationship. By playing with the fantasy of cuckolding with the use of sex toys, you are both experiencing the excitement of cuckolding without actually involving another man. My wife and I have engaged in similar play. Something I loved when we pretended that I was another man, the way you are doing, is that I discovered I was able to experience simultaneously how it feels to be both cuckold and “bull”. On the topic of compersion, I don’t know whether this is weird, but when my wife cuckolded me for real, my feeling of compersion encompassed both my wife and her lover. Maybe I was able to feel that because I had imagined how exciting it would feel to be “the other man” through the kind of role playing you describe. I suppose that imagining the other man’s pleasure also made me proud of having such a sexy wife. It’s complicated. Lol.